I became seriously puzzled by the question of what Christ did for me personally, on the cross. I couldn't grasp the idea that he actually atoned for my sin then and there. If that was true, then my sins were forgiven then and there.
As I began to reflect deeper, I started to worry that the modern view might be seriously flawed. The modern view is that Christ didn't actually atone for anyone at that moment. His atonement only becomes effectual when a person does something, whether that be believing or accepting Jesus in their heart or being baptized or whatever. Then I stumbled upon this puzzle which directly addresses what, if anything, actually occured on the cross.
The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:
- All the sins of all men.
- All the sins of some men, or
- Some of the sins of all men.
If you don't want to play, then maybe you can state reasons why this game is unfair, or rigged. Is there something about this puzzle that you don't think is square?
BTW, I added some material to the sanctification view of Sept. 7. Take a look.
8 comments:
I'll take (B), Alex: all the sins of some men.
I think the only reason that this is a puzzle is that we fleshbound humans get wrapped around the axle about time. Yes, my sins were forgiven before I repented of them. They were forgiven before I committed them. I was elected before...
Well now, can we put a time on when election "happened"? My sins and Jesus' crucifixion have definite locations on the historical timeline, but what about what God foreknew and foreordained. 'Fore what? 'Fore everything.
In ~30AD Christ was crucified and resurrected. 1970-2005 (and counting) my sins were committed. (Shortly after 9am, Oct 23 4004BC, my original sin occurred). I guess some time in the late 70's I consummated my election by "saying the sinner's prayer".
But since my salvation really has no cause/effect relationship with my actions (works), ALWAYS I was elect; ALWAYS my sins were forgiven.
I take it that was Alex Trebec, eh? You logic is impeccable but you didn't really address the puzzle theme of which men and how many of their sins. You did address the question of 'when did this occur'. Maybe you felt that addressing the 'when' would cover the 'which' and 'how many', but I am not sure.
I'll take Peyton Manning for $30. FFL's more fun to play. That is "a" modern view...not "the" modern view. All I know for sure is that He paid the price for my sins and I've been forgiven.
Thanks for the correction. Although it is 'a' modern view, it is the 'predominant' modern view. But, we really want you to play. Or at least state why you don't want to play.
Ok,Ok. I'll play. 'c' is definitely out. But there is some truth in both 'a' and 'b'. More later...
I go with "b"...if "a" is true than hell will be an empty place. Well, maybe full of fallen angels only...that would mean that Hitler, Stalin, McVeigh and Bin Laden would be going to heaven.
It's amazing that "the modern view" provides such a diminished view of the cross. Redemption is not accomplished until or unless an addendum is added. This addendum is known as acceptance, which is a condition or work (John 6:28-29).
Sorry, but I've been busy lately.
Based on the following verses Christ did die once for all sin. Now the question is "Who did he die for?". Does "a" imply that salvation is available to all men?
Does "b" only apply to the "elect"? You know this opens up the question of whether we have any choice in whether we believe or don't believe.
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The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. Rom 6:10
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.
Pet. 3:18
And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
2 Cor. 5:15
I made a comment here last week but apparently the upload never took. My instinctive reaction to choosing to believe something is that it seems to me that in all other areas where the word or idea of believing something occurs, we would never choose the belief. For example, if I asked the question "do you believe that the chicken came first or the egg came first" you wouldn't choose a belief, you would just state your belief (if you had one). But, as you said, that can of worms we can save for another time.
As for Christ dying once for all, in the first two verses quoted, the phrase "once for all" is actually a single Greek word 'hapax' which is an adverb meaning 'one time for all of time'. These are key verses which combat the Roman doctrine of the mass in which they hold that they are re-sacrificing Christ's body each time the mass is conducted.
In the final verse, I honestly believe that in the context, Paul's 'all' refers to all Christians.
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